Curse

suiraCLAW · Mar 30, 2006, 11:02 AM // 11:02

What if you combine a mesmer with physical instability and a cover hex with a ranger with practice stance + choking gas? (looks like constant knockdown...)

Aran · Mar 30, 2006, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Looking upon my previous posts, I must concede that battle-rage will end upon the use of blackout, and hence may not be the best idea for the warrior-blackout build (it's good, but not the best, as questionability of usefulness outside the field of monk shutdown comes into order).

Sprint is a likely alternative.

Avarre · Mar 30, 2006, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

NEW EXTREMELY FAST AND POWERFUL MESMER 55 BUILD

1- IW
2- IoR (images of remorse)
3- Any skill is a good skill here
4- Prot Spirit
5- Healing Breeze
6- Balthazar's Spirit
7- Mending
8- Essense Bond (optional....use anything you want here)

20% enchant on a axe or sword

IW and IoR are just perfect for each other in a 55 build IMO since they are both "Illusion based". Imagine the dmg one can do with IW and IoR with 16 points in Illusion Magic. OMFG!

PS. I'm glad I didn't delete my Mesmer. FTW! xD

Every time you stop attacking to cast... you lose 42 damage from IW. Yes using IoR would increase damage output significantly (its something like 41 at 12~ illusion, and -4 degen). However, be reminded you require 16 energy every 10 seconds to maintain your enchantments, and constantly casting IoR would play merry hell once the number of foes you faced was reduced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

However, for the sword and axe warrior in pvp... Battlerage gives you a x2 multiplier on all adrenaline gained from attacks - thus making executioners strike 4 hits to charge, and dismember/rake even less so (if you're taking damage, equivalent otherwise). This translates to a greater damage-over-time output, as reflected by the player using a speed increasing stance in battle

This is a factions skill discussion thread... have you read the skill Quivering Blade? +42 for 4 strikes, and combined with plague touch for a capability to daze and the option for an ias stance, I think that slaughters battle rage + galrath or executioner's.

In any case, warriors aren't used with blackout because it's simply more effective on other characters that don't lose all their adren. One of your chars is going to be down for 5 seconds... but for warriors, the adrenaline loss makes it more significant. Battle Rage is far from an ideal solution, as you'd be a good deal more efficient just using heavy warrior attack skills and an ally's blackout.

LightningHell · Mar 30, 2006, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

You underestimate battle rage. Of course, you do have valid points in the area of hammer warriors - they would much rather something else, as they require an attack speed boost of some sort for the most part.

However, for the sword and axe warrior in pvp, one must realise that a monk is forever moving and any conditions you stack upon them (such as sever-gash or dismem-rake combos) may be used against you in the form of a simple mend ailment + boon. Hence, the most effective way to kill a monk if you are a warrior is to not concentrate upon dealing damage at standstill, or at particular moments, but pressuring the monk by outputting continual damage.

I do not underestimate Battle Rage. Sure, it's fine and dandy in Arenas, but I find it extremely unuseful outside it.
Personally, I find that the Exec-Penetrating-Evis combo is better than the Eviscerate at the start, since the Deep Wound deals an additional 100~ damage. Every "Pressure" team you see has a minispike some time on, and the Elite skill helps tremendously.
But we digress. We are not on topic, nor was Blackout.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

Stances such as battle rage and rush are by far and away the most useful for a warrior, and note they may be used quite freely in alternation with other stances (although battlerage less so than rush). Running 25% faster as these stances grant may not appear to be all that fantastic to some, but then one realises that this (as apparently accentuated by a-net's movement-melee formulas) equals effectively a 3x multiplier upon how many hits one lands on a moving target - not to mention that they are not only free, but they may be activated at all times. This results in more adrenaline gained and more damage dealt over time.

Yes, I do realize. This is one point for you. Although I really disagree about the "by far and away the most useful for a warrior", since, for the points I described above, the Warrior must be ready for both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

In reference to other elites, one must assess the strategy of the team. If the warriors are indeed the only things which inflict significant damage then one may be able to attest to the use of elites such as eviscerate. However, this is only because battle-rage ends if you use a non-attack skill (thus disallowing the warrior from using skills such as gale).

If the warriors are indeed the only things which inflict significant damage. And that is completely true in the current metagame; the other classes' damage capabilities are just too...sloppy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

Battlerage gives you a x2 multiplier on all adrenaline gained from attacks - thus making executioners strike 4 hits to charge, and dismember/rake even less so (if you're taking damage, equivalent otherwise). This translates to a greater damage-over-time output, as reflected by the player using a speed increasing stance in battle. If one chooses to stand in one place and attack (such as with flurry or frenzy), their play style obviously revolves around on-the-spot output, and not actual damage overall - especially since due to the movement of monks and other soft targets, this damage is significantly decreased. These players would obviously prefer an eviscerate-type skill.

No, actually. Most prefer the damage elite because it helps more than Battle Rage.

No, actually. If you have a CripShot spammer spamming away at your target, given you're actually being serious in PvP, then I don't see kiting as a big enough problem yet. Of course, unless their opposing Air Ele is galeing you, or if you're crippled yourself, but that's where the typical Frenzy-Axe Warrior's Sprint comes in. You should have sprint ready if you get hit, anyways. Plus the fact you don't really have a choice if you're Gale'd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

1) needless to say, we're talking about an 12 second monk kill here. A team given 12 seconds to formulate a battle strategy given an opponent, process targets, then initiate will be disrupted by the death of their monk in such a short period (an example being the obby flame build when used properly in Team Arenas) - killing a monk is not just killing 1/4 players, it is killing their healing and their moral (player wise, not death penalty wise).

Twelve seconds is a lot, and so can twelve seconds a monk completely heal herself fourteen times over for her max health. Twelve seconds on Teamspeak is the turnpoint on many matches.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

2 & 3) the phantom pain surge elem build is simple and not quite what you would expect. It involves the following skill combo: Phantom pain, lightning surge, lightning orb, shatter delusions, lightning strike - doing 500 damage in the space of about 3 seconds with a 4 second leadup.

Lightning Surge is not worth talking about. Phantom Pain should not be used in any team with a warrior, since a Warrior without a Deep Wounder is "criminal". Deep Wound is the killing condition.

By the way, I have to ask, a second time, are you serious? If you play with half-decent monks, four seconds is a long time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

The warrior-elementalist debate is more along the lines of what can deal damage in what time period, a warrior specialises in DOT, whereas an elementalists specialises in spike. These are completely differing things – however eviscerate may be said to be a spike of sorts.

Exactement. There, you just got yourself all tripped up. I'll point out.

Executioners-Penetrating-Eviscerate with a shock inbetween is far more damaging than the average airspike. Warrior spike ftw?

Although Spike characters virtually have no damage, but the average Warrior who spikes still has that damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

In general, this is but one warrior in a team of four – you may wish to have another employing a dissimilar strategy, but from personal experience, and not simply opinion, the rage/rush-er will always prove to deal more damage than any other type of sword/axe warrior.

Oh, you're talking about Arenas. In my personal experience, Battle Rage does not progress any more than Arenas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

And please, do not forget about rangers – warriors are not the only things which can deal significant damage over time.

Yes, Rangers are good. I have heard of Ranger Spike, after all. And there are those CripShot-Apply Rangers that kill my elly every time without fail.

Peace. I hope I didn't flame too much.

Back to the Factions Skill Discussion...

(By the way, if you'd want to discuss it, Aran, feel free to PM me

)

EDIT: I mean 1-Warrior teams as in, for example, the Bigger Big build posted on our forum.

Keilious Ahruhk · Mar 31, 2006, 03:31 AM // 03:31

You do make some valid points, LightningHell, and you're rapidly giving me the impression that you're one of those people who believe that HA and GvG is "what GW is about". (That's what's great about this game though, everyone can enjoy it in a different way)
To set one thing straight, TA and AB is everything to us, and its the main bulk of our experience with GW.

Granted, the metagame in HA accomodates much better for warriors leaning towards spike simply because you don't have to deal with the massive ammount of running that people do in TA.
Sustained damage pressure does alot more for you in TA, because it will have an effect, whereas in HA such damage can be completely negated with little to no cost to the team's resources.

LightningHell · Mar 31, 2006, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

Blah blah blah

You have a point...except I don't play PvP much. I just use a calculator, and sometimes go on HA, and often TA. But IMO, TA doesn't even need enough tactics to need a subforum of its own.

Dragannia · Mar 31, 2006, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

You have a point...except I don't play PvP much. I just use a calculator, and sometimes go on HA, and often TA. But IMO, TA doesn't even need enough tactics to need a subforum of its own.

Didn't you notice where I wrote "I am looking at this from a PvP perspective"? So, you've essentially just waffled with little clue of what you were talking about.

Hella Good · Mar 31, 2006, 06:44 AM // 06:44

I'm just going to crosspost the section of my post in the Factions forum that deals with the few mesmer skills I got a chance to try:

Overload- It is my understanding that this is like an anti-ele type of skill. It's ok... but it's also nothing to be excited about.

Unnatural Sig- The return of this skill is a big one. I love it. It's nice for killing annoying Rt spirits, it's nice as a finishing spike (Mesmers always seem to need the last move), and I can finally make a highly effective and damaging Sig mes.

Accumulated Pain- Phantom Pain/Shatter Del alternative. I used it on top on Images of Remorse and Conjure Phantasm-> 10 degen, some minor spike damage, and a Deep Wound. Worked perfectly fine.

Conjure Nightmare- This skill is damn costly... I used it with Glyph of Energy. It is cool, because of its low cooldown you can spread it around and max degen a lot fo things and if u use GoE or smth similar to negate the cost, it can be really useful.

Images of Remorse- Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful new addition. Clumsiness meets Conjure Phantasm for a cheap, low recharge anti-war, ranger, assassin move. If your target isn't attacking- who cares- give them some cheap 5 degen anyway!

I didn't unlock any elites. However, I can tell you one thing for certain- I am never going to waste 3k faction to unlock Arcane Languor. It's pathetic. More than pathetic- it's worse than 99% of the mesmer non-elites. Horrible. Unless they buff it big time, I'm not unlocking it. I didn't like Recurring Insecurity elite, too. 3 degen is nothing. Not gonna waste my elite on a skill that does nothing more than a lingering 3 degen.

Oh, and those no attribute skills (excluding Expell Hexes) are worthless looking. Don't think I'll go to such lengths to get rid of a chant or two. Not when I have 2 Inspa Chants, Shatter Chant, and a whole lot of stuff I can borrow from Necros (including the totally amazing Order of Apostasy). I hope they edit these skills big time before release.

Aran · Mar 31, 2006, 08:34 AM // 08:34

As a final note - as you have obviously expected yours to be so (yes, I am doing this to spite you) - and as we're discussing blackout's uses (thus fitting nicely in the grey area of discussion in the Mesmer forums) - not to mention that (as a guild friend) the original poster is more than happy for me to rant on, I shall put in my two cents.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I do not underestimate Battle Rage. Sure, it's fine and dandy in Arenas, but I find it extremely unuseful outside it.
Personally, I find that the Exec-Penetrating-Evis combo is better than the Eviscerate at the start, since the Deep Wound deals an additional 100~ damage. Every "Pressure" team you see has a minispike some time on, and the Elite skill helps tremendously.

For my arguments, I'll add to them in an accumulating manner, as I couldn't be bothered wasting any more time than that upon these forums when I could be playing the game.

- A blackout warrior does not need to use blackout at all times, it is just to add pressure at the last seconds or, if organised as such, at any particular moment in battle. (just taking a second to state the obvious in case you missed it)

- Battlerage does not only increase your speed, but the speed at which you can dish out your adrenal skills. As you have said, you'd rather eviscerate being used later on than at the start - which just adds to the argument for battlerage. It allows you to dish out high-damage skills such as exec strike and dismember separately, whilst adding the additional chance of a critical hit more often. This is as attacking a moving foe, as we all know, yields a greater chance of critical hits and speed boosts add a 3x multiplier upon hits gained whilst a target is moving (this is in fact false, as it is an understatement), by simple mathematics (as you are obviously handy with a calculator), this results in greater DOT.

- the Exec-Penetrating-Evis combination within itself is a selfish one. Having multiple warriors (although you have chosen to discuss a single warrior team, I'm redirecting this to the broader spectrum) concludes that having a moving soft target (any caster or assassin) subject to the dismem-rake-exec combination will take more damage over all, as due to the moving-melee formulas, it results in an increase of how many hits you can make due to the speed reduction of the foe, but not in critical hits made upon them (due to the fact that they are still moving). This isn't even to mention that dismem-rake-exec as a combo is executed in a fraction of the time by a battle-raging warrior.

- it is not the job of a blackout warrior to provide minispikes - as a ranger on the team may be able to do this with ease. Blackout simply adds a large amount of pressure to a monk - as you say later on, a second is forever for a monk - 5x that is that much more. Hence it can be seen that the blackout warrior doesn't really need to be dealing damage whilst in blackout - he is simply providing an opportunity. Any damage outside blackout is increased due to battle rage,

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

If the warriors are indeed the only things which inflict significant damage. And that is completely true in the current metagame; the other classes' damage capabilities are just too...sloppy.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the metagame has shifted in the latest updates. Due to the now international state of the Arenas and how this has effected others' way of thinking, the metagame is vastly different. It now results (on the korean side, and hence internationally - as they appear to be the greatest influences) in a large amount of hex-based degeneration teams which utilise defensive stances and offensive skills used defensively to prevent damage.

Thus it has now become more about sustaining healing and spreading damage in order to kill enemies faster than they kill you (and shut them down before you can shut them down).

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

No, actually. Most prefer the damage elite because it helps more than Battle Rage.

No, actually, most prefer to have damage dealing builds because large numbers, in their minds = good. To most, actual statistics and applied battle situations (and thus actual damage calculations) give way to what the green number in the skill description states. You appear to me to fall under this category

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

No, actually. If you have a CripShot spammer spamming away at your target, given you're actually being serious in PvP, then I don't see kiting as a big enough problem yet. Of course, unless their opposing Air Ele is galeing you, or if you're crippled yourself, but that's where the typical Frenzy-Axe Warrior's Sprint comes in. You should have sprint ready if you get hit, anyways. Plus the fact you don't really have a choice if you're Gale'd

You have described a team which obviously wont need battle rage - as I had stated, it depends upon the team, so your example supports your argument but does not address mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Twelve seconds is a lot, and so can twelve seconds a monk completely heal herself fourteen times over for her max health. Twelve seconds on Teamspeak is the turnpoint on many matches.

Twelve seconds may be a lot, but looking at actual damage timeframes I have stated, it is a 3 second kill - 2 of which the monk is blacked out, not to mention that the lead-up time of the particular build I stated takes up the rest of this + 2 seconds (maximum). The rest of the 12 seconds is spent getting into range - something which must be accounted for.

This is of course, an arena's situation - blackout warriors aren't really an 8v8 or 12v12 thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Lightning Surge is not worth talking about. Phantom Pain should not be used in any team with a warrior, since a Warrior without a Deep Wounder is "criminal". Deep Wound is the killing condition.

By the way, I have to ask, a second time, are you serious? If you play with half-decent monks, four seconds is a long time.

Yes, deep wound is the killing condition - but you want it inflicted at the right time - which is the point of that particular elementalist build. Oh, and did you forget that the warrior is spending his/her time blacking out the monk at this point in time? How do you expect a deep wound from them in that particular situation in battle (not that it is the only one the warrior can be in).

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Executioners-Penetrating-Eviscerate with a shock inbetween is far more damaging than the average airspike. Warrior spike ftw?

Although Spike characters virtually have no damage, but the average Warrior who spikes still has that damage.

Warriors, as many can attest, do not do spike damage.

Warriors do damage over time.

A monk hit with that particular combination of skills is dealt about 400 damage - a large amount, sure, but not entirely unrecoverable via a single reversal - and did you forget about guardian?

Blackout is superior to shock in monk killing by all means.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Oh, you're talking about Arenas. In my personal experience, Battle Rage does not progress any more than Arenas.

You obviously lack experience.

"Peace".

Keilious Ahruhk · Mar 31, 2006, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

You have a point...except I don't play PvP much. I just use a calculator, and sometimes go on HA, and often TA. But IMO, TA doesn't even need enough tactics to need a subforum of its own.

You're starting to come across as almost aggressive, I hardly think my post was of a "blah blah blah" calibur, and TA needs alot more tactics than you might think, there is no part of GW which is greater than another.
Lets see, you need to consider each persons build in HA/GvG?
As do you in TA.
You need to consider your environment and terrain advantage in HA/GvG?
As do you in TA.
Are there specific builds that are only very effective in HA/GvG?
As are there in TA.
Are there special character skill combos and cross-player skill combinations that work in HA/GvG?
As are there in TA.

LightningHell · Mar 31, 2006, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

You're starting to come across as almost aggressive, I hardly think my post was of a "blah blah blah" calibur, and TA needs alot more tactics than you might think, there is no part of GW which is greater than another.

Keilious, I am sorry for using the "Blah blah blah". I did not want a quote to take so much space, when my comment was so short. Nor do I mean to be aggressive. Yes, I realize no part of GW is more important to the other; I am just referring to the calibur of the players playing there (HA isn't such a decent place, either, though.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

Lets see, you need to consider each persons build in HA/GvG?
As do you in TA.

With eight people, the game becomes exceedingly complex.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

You need to consider your environment and terrain advantage in HA/GvG?
As do you in TA.

Yes. The point above applies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

Are there specific builds that are only very effective in HA/GvG?
As are there in TA.

Yes. The point above applies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

Are there special character skill combos and cross-player skill combinations that work in HA/GvG?
As are there in TA.

Yes, but not all of them work in the "higher" form of PvP (notice the "s), while the GvG combinations almost always work back in TA. I do not vouch for HA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragannia

Didn't you notice where I wrote "I am looking at this from a PvP perspective"? So, you've essentially just waffled with little clue of what you were talking about.

I do notice that we are talking in a PvP perspective. However, I do not PvP much, but I do use a calculator and be smart, and ocassionally read the forums.

Please read better/Please not let prejudices affect your judgement, whichever applies to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

As a final note - as you have obviously expected yours to be so (yes, I am doing this to spite you) - and as we're discussing blackout's uses (thus fitting nicely in the grey area of discussion in the Mesmer forums) - not to mention that (as a guild friend) the original poster is more than happy for me to rant on, I shall put in my two cents.

I would be more happy if you sent a PM, but I am not angry.
And I am sorry if this post would be considered as "spiting you".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

For my arguments, I'll add to them in an accumulating manner, as I couldn't be bothered wasting any more time than that upon these forums when I could be playing the game.

- A blackout warrior does not need to use blackout at all times, it is just to add pressure at the last seconds or, if organised as such, at any particular moment in battle. (just taking a second to state the obvious in case you missed it)

To Blackout yourself may contribute to the team at that second, but why do it when there is a person who can do it while not wasting that much resources (to Blackout yourself you spend energy + adrenaline, while if one of your teammates uses the blackout he/she only spends energy. Personally, I think this is even more ridiculous, with the Warrior's innate 2-Energy-regeneration). Of course, there is the question about range, but that is why CripShot Rangers often had blackout; I do not know after the update.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

- Battlerage does not only increase your speed, but the speed at which you can dish out your adrenal skills. As you have said, you'd rather eviscerate being used later on than at the start - which just adds to the argument for battlerage. It allows you to dish out high-damage skills such as exec strike and dismember separately, whilst adding the additional chance of a critical hit more often. This is as attacking a moving foe, as we all know, yields a greater chance of critical hits and speed boosts add a 3x multiplier upon hits gained whilst a target is moving (this is in fact false, as it is an understatement), by simple mathematics (as you are obviously handy with a calculator), this results in greater DOT.

I do my research, even if they are incomplete. I do my homework.

Unless the team only has 1 monk, this will not be so. However, all your points are correct with 1 monk, so I'll bypass. (Once again, you're not addressing my concerns.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

- the Exec-Penetrating-Evis combination within itself is a selfish one. Having multiple warriors (although you have chosen to discuss a single warrior team, I'm redirecting this to the broader spectrum) concludes that having a moving soft target (any caster or assassin) subject to the dismem-rake-exec combination will take more damage over all, as due to the moving-melee formulas, it results in an increase of how many hits you can make due to the speed reduction of the foe, but not in critical hits made upon them (due to the fact that they are still moving). This isn't even to mention that dismem-rake-exec as a combo is executed in a fraction of the time by a battle-raging warrior.

Can you elaborate on the "selfish" part of the text again?

I do not mind that you are doing to the broader spectrum.

But I'm really confused how you get the higher damage on using dismember-axe rake-executioner's strike. If you're stating that the Rake will snare the opponent, I assume there is a snarer/CripShot Ranger in your party, so we're talking different planets again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

Hence it can be seen that the blackout warrior doesn't really need to be dealing damage whilst in blackout

Ooh, nice manipulation of enemies.

But you're wasting the power of the most potent damage machine ANet has given us. In this stage of the game, in my experience, Warriors - at least smart ones - do more damage than Rangers. So why not stick the Blackout on the Ranger?

Actually, that would be the old CripShot Ranger...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the metagame has shifted in the latest updates. Due to the now international state of the Arenas and how this has effected others' way of thinking, the metagame is vastly different. It now results (on the korean side, and hence internationally - as they appear to be the greatest influences) in a large amount of hex-based degeneration teams which utilise defensive stances and offensive skills used defensively to prevent damage.

Okay, I accept this point - simply because I haven't been in Arenas for some weeks now. I wasn't really talking about Arenas, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

Thus it has now become more about sustaining healing and spreading damage in order to kill enemies faster than they kill you (and shut them down before you can shut them down).

(Which is why a Hammer warrior is good.)

If that is so, the I believe the CoP Warrior will dominate more than the Blackout warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

No, actually, most prefer to have damage dealing builds because large numbers, in their minds = good. To most, actual statistics and applied battle situations (and thus actual damage calculations) give way to what the green number in the skill description states. You appear to me to fall under this category.

Actually, playing a more ... subtle role as the Elementalist (or ocassionally Mesmer), I scarcely ignore the potential and tactical use of a skill. Look at my in-game-profession.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

You have described a team which obviously wont need battle rage - as I had stated, it depends upon the team, so your example supports your argument but does not address mine.

Your arguments do not address mine, either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

Twelve seconds may be a lot, but looking at actual damage timeframes I have stated, it is a 3 second kill - 2 of which the monk is blacked out, not to mention that the lead-up time of the particular build I stated takes up the rest of this + 2 seconds (maximum). The rest of the 12 seconds is spent getting into range - something which must be accounted for.

This is of course, an arena's situation - blackout warriors aren't really an 8v8 or 12v12 thing.

I will ignore the last line, since you seem not to wish for me to pick it up.

You have to take into account when you use Blackout, you also reset all adrenaline built up. Also, your Blackout automatically disables your Battle Rage, making you not able to gain the bonus from Battle Rage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

Yes, deep wound is the killing condition - but you want it inflicted at the right time - which is the point of that particular elementalist build. Oh, and did you forget that the warrior is spending his/her time blacking out the monk at this point in time? How do you expect a deep wound from them in that particular situation in battle (not that it is the only one the warrior can be in).

How do Elementalists create a Deep Wound again?

Euh...not many options there.

I am suggesting you drop Blackout from the Warrior. If you do the Blackout, that will mean you cannot inflict the Deep Wound, nor can you inflict the Crippled condition, nor can you inflict anything else but poison if you have Apply, but then you're using a /Me for Blackout.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

Warriors, as many can attest, do not do spike damage.

Warriors do damage over time.

That is why I said "minispike". If I did not say that, forgive me, I was meant to say that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

A monk hit with that particular combination of skills is dealt about 400 damage - a large amount, sure, but not entirely unrecoverable via a single reversal - and did you forget about guardian?

Blackout is superior to shock in monk killing by all means.

No I did not forget about Guardian, nor did I forget about Aegis, nor Shadow of Fear, nor Protective Spirit, nor Deep Freeze, nor Crippling Shot, nor Distortion, or any other skill for that matter.

Blackout is well superior to shock in monk killing, but is it feasible to put that task of blacking out to a Warrior? Yes, Blackout is very good, but putting Blackout on a Warrior does not make sense to me, since you also drain all your adrenaline while doing so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aran

You obviously lack experience.

This is not a sentence I would take lightly, although you may count me as "inexperienced", as you play a Warrior and I do not? This build is clearly a gimmick.
Do not create these statements lightly; I got flamed over one of them, and over the same one, got a mod angry.

I am quite happy already this discussion does not go the way many discussions do - flaming.

To end, I think we're talking entirely different worlds here. And for the love of God, can an "expert" Warrior come over and correct both of us.

(And please don't think I'm stupid.)

Hella Good · Mar 31, 2006, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Despite your dominating belief, you are not writing a Bible here... Also, I fail to see the topic discussion. Pms are a wonderful solution for personal vendetta. Forum threads - not. Now back to new mesmer skills.

LightningHell · Mar 31, 2006, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Hella Good, who are you addressing? As for me, the above posts are my opinions - no need to believe them. Also, different things work differently. No one said it was a Bible. I generally defend my opinions if possible, and I try to respect others'.

(And yes, I did include an offer for PMs - however, since I had to reply to multiple recipients, I figured posting would be a better idea.)

Keilious Ahruhk · Mar 31, 2006, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Keilious, I am sorry for using the "Blah blah blah". I did not want a quote to take so much space, when my comment was so short. Nor do I mean to be aggressive. Yes, I realize no part of GW is more important to the other; I am just referring to the calibur of the players playing there (HA isn't such a decent place, either, though.)

Oh righty then, I use *snip* to designate where I cut large quotes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

With eight people, the game becomes exceedingly complex.

Oh, most certainly, and although you do have to put a slightly higher level of thinking into making a great team, its more the quantity of thought required, rather than the quality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Yes, but not all of them work in the "higher" form of PvP (notice the "s), while the GvG combinations almost always work back in TA. I do not vouch for HA.

Definitely, but there are of course skill combos that become obselete in GvG that work just fine in TA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I do notice that we are talking in a PvP perspective. However, I do not PvP much, but I do use a calculator and be smart, and ocassionally read the forums.

Of course, that's one way of looking at PvP, I find pure calculation is rather limited in its uses simply because of the large variety of teams you could oppose.

Aran · Mar 31, 2006, 12:06 PM // 12:06

*expert warrior jumps into the room* - I do have over 1k hours under my belt mainly as a warrior, so I hope this suffices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

To Blackout yourself may contribute to the team at that second, but why do it when there is a person who can do it while not wasting that much resources (to Blackout yourself you spend energy + adrenaline, while if one of your teammates uses the blackout he/she only spends energy. Personally, I think this is even more ridiculous, with the Warrior's innate 2-Energy-regeneration). Of course, there is the question about range, but that is why CripShot Rangers often had blackout; I do not know after the update.

- because in the instance of 4v4, the warrior can do it himself whilst being in range (much as you stated) and at the time (say the monk is on 30%), depending upon the team (remember, you only have 3 slots to work with given that a monk is given in most teams - -1 if you have this warrior, so 2) this may be just enough to finish the man off.

Namely, we're not saying the build is fantastic, we're saying that
a) blackout is more useful than shock on a warrior in our opinion
b) it does indeed have its uses - so much so that the usage of so much of the warrior's resources may be warranted.

Plus, due to the now extended recharge of blackout, and hence the need for a ranger to keep in range (mind, he cant do this automatically as he is wielding a bow - unless he bothers switching), crip rangers in general - and even more so with the fact that crip has been upped in energy cost, are out of fashion, not to mention ones with blackout.

As an added note, the fact that blackout has an extended recharge adds to the BO warrior’s output, hence making it less of a useless damager.

Oh, and did you forget the zealous upgrade? Seeing as this isn't a quintessential damage-dealer, it's a semi-monk shutdown, zealous doesn't hurt one bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I do my research, even if they are incomplete. I do my homework.

Unless the team only has 1 monk, this will not be so. However, all your points are correct with 1 monk, so I'll bypass. (Once again, you're not addressing my concerns.)

I am addressing your concerns, you're just not reading in deep enough - rather, looking for things to criticise. If you feel it needed, just list them in your next post, which you are bound to put up.

And yes, as I stated, the blackout warrior is useful in pvp as a 4v4 build. I do not pretend to admit that it is rather flawed in an 8v8 setting - in 12v12, however, as monks dont expect it, it MAY have its uses, but I have not assessed the situation with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Can you elaborate on the "selfish" part of the text again?

I do not mind that you are doing to the broader spectrum.

But I'm really confused how you get the higher damage on using dismember-axe rake-executioner's strike. If you're stating that the Rake will snare the opponent, I assume there is a snarer/CripShot Ranger in your party, so we're talking different planets again.

- much unlike warriors who use frenzy as opposed to rush, blackout warriors are designed to not have a snare ranger on the team. I can't believe you haven’t gathered that much (mind, this is in a 4v4 setting).

- hence, it can be seen that a crippled target allows other warriors to effecitvely catch up and hence deal the aditional damage earlier stated (hence, not being selfish - ie, not concentrating upon only what you are doing)

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Ooh, nice manipulation of enemies.

?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

But you're wasting the power of the most potent damage machine ANet has given us. In this stage of the game, in my experience, Warriors - at least smart ones - do more damage than Rangers. So why not stick the Blackout on the Ranger?

Actually, that would be the old CripShot Ranger...

- the question of being the most potent is questionable
- Warriors are also versatile, which is what this build revolves around - they do not have to be all damage.
- and the cripshotter is addressed earlier

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

(Which is why a Hammer warrior is good.)

If that is so, the I believe the CoP Warrior will dominate more than the Blackout warrior.

- Hammer warriors are as effected by crippling anguish, conjure phantasm, ineptitude, clumsiness and distortion as much as any other type of warrior. In general - these teams cannot be fought on the most part by warriors, unless you have a team high in hex removal. However, in these teams, yes, a hammer warrior will be more effective.

To clarify, I was stating that warriors are no longer the focus of the arenas - or in tombs for that matter (gvg and 12v12 are completely different matters).

- a CoP warrior may well be more effective, but that isn't the point (which is, a BO warrior CAN do the job)

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Actually, playing a more ... subtle role as the Elementalist (or ocassionally Mesmer), I scarcely ignore the potential and tactical use of a skill. Look at my in-game-profession.

I play an e/me as well, so I know where you're coming from with this one - however, some of your statements show none of this learned subtlety.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Your arguments do not address mine, either.

This is because we parted ways in that I have been discussing the BO warrior in 4v4, and you have been discussing it in 8v8. Obviously, it's usefulness is limited to purely the arenas - as you've stated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I will ignore the last line, since you seem not to wish for me to pick it up.

Actually, I thought you would cue from it as to what I was talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

You have to take into account when you use Blackout, you also reset all adrenaline built up. Also, your Blackout automatically disables your Battle Rage, making you not able to gain the bonus from Battle Rage.

I already admitted this earlier - and noted sprint as an alternative, although the build does suffer from this flaw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

How do Elementalists create a Deep Wound again?

Euh...not many options there.

By using their secondary. As you should know. E/ME you say you play, and yet you forget phantom pain? I was indeed discussing the phantompain-surge build – which I described earlier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I am suggesting you drop Blackout from the Warrior. If you do the Blackout, that will mean you cannot inflict the Deep Wound, nor can you inflict the Crippled condition, nor can you inflict anything else but poison if you have Apply, but then you're using a /Me for Blackout.

There is, as afore stated, the question of not spamming blackout at every instant, although I may have implied otherwise, this was intended as can be seen in some of my statements (such as the e-sarcasm in "if you wait 1-2 more seconds" - although I had forgotten at the time that b-rage would end upon use of blackout)

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

That is why I said "minispike". If I did not say that, forgive me, I was meant to say that.

Oh you did, but you implied that only a warrior can do this (though tone if nothing else), so my disagreement lied within that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

No I did not forget about Guardian, nor did I forget about Aegis, nor Shadow of Fear, nor Protective Spirit, nor Deep Freeze, nor Crippling Shot, nor Distortion, or any other skill for that matter.

Didn't you?

So what's the most powerful damage dealer A-net have given us in light of this? Clearly, by your own statements, a warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Blackout is well superior to shock in monk killing, but is it feasible to put that task of blacking out to a Warrior? Yes, Blackout is very good, but putting Blackout on a Warrior does not make sense to me, since you also drain all your adrenaline while doing so.

There are pros and cons of delegating the task to the warrior. In short - after testing a few weeks ago, before we had to shift due to the new metagame brought by updates - blackout IS effective in killing monks, and in a 4v4 situation, it is worth it.

Sure he looses his adrenaline, but as I've stated at the start - this doesn't stop him from at least dealing his share of damage (critical hits) - as can be accentuated by a fleeing fleshy target whilst under sprint or rush.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

This is not a sentence I would take lightly, although you may count me as "inexperienced", as you play a Warrior and I do not? This build is clearly a gimmick.

Take the sentence as you will. However, as is everything anyone says within an argument, it is counted as personal opinion and its meaning can be taken as want - I simply stated it in light of my views upon your views.

It may be a gimmick to you, but it does have its definite positives when compared to a shock warrior or the like (as warriors do not have to be the central damage of the team) - this build is only there as a way for warriors to shut down monks to the point where the team has enough monk shutdown. Ie, if the team needs a little - this is a good way to get it. If it needs a lot, a subversion mesmer would be a fitting alternative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

To end, I think we're talking entirely different worlds here.

Agreed. (finally something wholly I agree upon)

LightningHell · Mar 31, 2006, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

Definitely, but there are of course skill combos that become obselete in GvG that work just fine in TA.

I think I said it there...

Quote:

Yes, but not all of them work in the "higher" form of PvP

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

Of course, that's one way of looking at PvP, I find pure calculation is rather limited in its uses simply because of the large variety of teams you could oppose.

Well, you can pity poor me for having so little time for Guild Wars.

Quote:

- because in the instance of 4v4, the warrior can do it himself whilst being in range (much as you stated) and at the time (say the monk is on 30%), depending upon the team (remember, you only have 3 slots to work with given that a monk is given in most teams - -1 if you have this warrior, so 2) this may be just enough to finish the man off.

Okay, we're talking 4v4 now. This is going to be hard on me...

I don't have any - and I mean any experience of being a Warrior in any Arena form.

Quote:

Namely, we're not saying the build is fantastic, we're saying that
a) blackout is more useful than shock on a warrior in our opinion
b) it does indeed have its uses - so much so that the usage of so much of the warrior's resources may be warranted.

Actually, for the point a), I find Gale much more useful, since it shuts down the opponent for 3 seconds (as opposed to 5), and doesn't reset your adrenaline. (Hence the Gale Axe model.)

Quote:

Plus, due to the now extended recharge of blackout, and hence the need for a ranger to keep in range (mind, he cant do this automatically as he is wielding a bow - unless he bothers switching), crip rangers in general - and even more so with the fact that crip has been upped in energy cost, are out of fashion, not to mention ones with blackout.

IMHO, people who don't bother to switch their weapon set so they actually contribute to their team is considered a/an (insert rather derogatory term here).

The upping of the E-cost of Crippling Shot doesn't change my opinion in any way, since a spammer of Blackout is a/an (insert another rather derogatory term here).

Quote:

As an added note, the fact that blackout has an extended recharge adds to the BO warrior’s output, hence making it less of a useless damager.

Good.

Quote:

Oh, and did you forget the zealous upgrade? Seeing as this isn't a quintessential damage-dealer, it's a semi-monk shutdown, zealous doesn't hurt one bit.

Most warriors have a set of Zealous/Vampiric anyways. This proves your point, actually.

Quote:

I am addressing your concerns, you're just not reading in deep enough - rather, looking for things to criticise. If you feel it needed, just list them in your next post, which you are bound to put up.

Well, now I have no concerns since we're definitely on 4v4. I always automatically prepare for 8v8 discussions. I might have seen too many of Ensign's/JR's threads.

Quote:

- much unlike warriors who use frenzy as opposed to rush, blackout warriors are designed to not have a snare ranger on the team. I can't believe you haven’t gathered that much (mind, this is in a 4v4 setting).

I apologize for automatically assuming you are playing with a CripShot ranger. I've evidently not played Arenas for a long time...so I'm forgetting stuff, please feel free.

Quote:

And yes, as I stated, the blackout warrior is useful in pvp as a 4v4 build. I do not pretend to admit that it is rather flawed in an 8v8 setting - in 12v12, however, as monks dont expect it, it MAY have its uses, but I have not assessed the situation with that.

Nor would it be of any use assessing the situation, seeing Factions isn't out yet.

Quote:

?

Since a Warrior is the primary damage character in the current game (albeit the easiest to shutdown), you somewhat surprise your enemy by blacking them out instead of using the rather conventional Exec-Penetrating-Evis or Evis-Exec-Penetrating "spike". There's the illusion. Pretty smart one, too.

[/QUOTE]- the question of being the most potent is questionable
- Warriors are also versatile, which is what this build revolves around - they do not have to be all damage.[/QUOTE]

Definition of potent: Having or wielding force or authority (one of its definitions).

The Warrior is capable of the highest damage in the Guild Wars PvP world, but they are as easily shutdown. I think you misintepreted my meaning. But I also think I'm very vague on it...

The second point I concede, since your build clearly looks on that as a point for it.

The third point I also discussed above.

Quote:

- Hammer warriors are as effected by crippling anguish, conjure phantasm, ineptitude, clumsiness and distortion as much as any other type of warrior. In general - these teams cannot be fought on the most part by warriors, unless you have a team high in hex removal. However, in these teams, yes, a hammer warrior will be more effective.

I was talking about the Knockdown factor, of which the Backbreaker or Devastating Hammer skill is invaluable.

Quote:

To clarify, I was stating that warriors are no longer the focus of the arenas - or in tombs for that matter (gvg and 12v12 are completely different matters).

I am rather slow, am I

Quote:

- a CoP warrior may well be more effective, but that isn't the point (which is, a BO warrior CAN do the job)

Point taken, However, it is only natural that people take the course of the more powerful and easier build, which in this case is the CoP Warrior.

Quote:

This is because we parted ways in that I have been discussing the BO warrior in 4v4, and you have been discussing it in 8v8. Obviously, it's usefulness is limited to purely the arenas - as you've stated.

Which is what I gathered, and put together in the last line of my last long-ish post. You mentioned it in the end of the post.

Quote:

By using their secondary. As you should know. E/ME you say you play, and yet you forget phantom pain? I was indeed discussing the phantompain-surge build – which I described earlier.

I was under the impression that E/Me characters don't have a friendly reception in TA. However, I still doubt the viability of Lightning Surge - something I would doubtless have to test later. In TA, of course. (My belief is that LS would get pummeled in any sort of "higher" level PvP play.)

I would have to test this BO build in TA, looks promising for it.

Aran · Mar 31, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

In general - good to hear lightning.

Now, I agree, back to the topic (although keil may want to respond, I'll leave that to him).

Well, most of people's posts are rather opinionated, and just assessing the new skills from their own perspectives - but to add to suiraCLAW's statement;

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

What if you combine a mesmer with physical instability and a cover hex with a ranger with practice stance + choking gas? (looks like constant knockdown...)

Well, not really, as choking gas only interrupts spells - but in general, the theme you suggest is viable - although only in a 4v4 situation (hexes will be very hard to get through in 8v8, thanks to the other wonderful mesmer elite we all know and love - or love to hate as it may be).

It would be more along the lines of the ranger just hitting punishing, distracting and savage to keep the enemy down - but then, what’s the point of wasting two people when you can simply have Thunderclap?

You can, however, use the ranger to cast the hex in the first place, I guess - something we'll prob. see a lot of in random arenas soon enough.

The build is a possibility more than a definite (mainly due to energy problems on the ranger's side - although psychic is in itself 5 energy, it's attributes taking away rangers' ones and the cost of the interrupts will deplete the ranger).

However, a mesmer and one or two hammer warriors would be highly proficient. Dwarven battlestance + psychic instability + "On your knees!" can be kept up indefinitely upon one target - or switched between targets - as seen fit due to the warriors' high damage output and ability to use wild/irresistible blow during the duration of a defensive stance/enchantments to then continue to interrupt/knockdown the target.

However, I have the feeling that "On your knees!" will be nurfed (shield bash + this + glads = stupidtankernoobfavebuild - not to mention all the other pvp possibilities, namely bulls charge, on your knees).

byteme! · Apr 01, 2006, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Every time you stop attacking to cast... you lose 42 damage from IW. Yes using IoR would increase damage output significantly (its something like 41 at 12~ illusion, and -4 degen). However, be reminded you require 16 energy every 10 seconds to maintain your enchantments, and constantly casting IoR would play merry hell once the number of foes you faced was reduced.

This is a factions skill discussion thread... have you read the skill Quivering Blade? +42 for 4 strikes, and combined with plague touch for a capability to daze and the option for an ias stance, I think that slaughters battle rage + galrath or executioner's.

In any case, warriors aren't used with blackout because it's simply more effective on other characters that don't lose all their adren. One of your chars is going to be down for 5 seconds... but for warriors, the adrenaline loss makes it more significant. Battle Rage is far from an ideal solution, as you'd be a good deal more efficient just using heavy warrior attack skills and an ally's blackout.

Doesn't matter if I have to stop and cast really. Not like I'm in a hurry to get somewhere when I'm farming solo. I've done 55 with mesmer before they nerfed griffons. I know it's not exactly as fast as a Necro build but with IoR things should speed up significantly EVEN if I have to stop to cast it or other spells.

Yes energy may be a concern. It usually is when you are running low on enemies using 55. But remember there are always ways to work around this if you think it through. I mean I've done Mesmer 55 for quite some time with this very same build minus IoR so I don't see how impracticle this build can be. Just saying it can be done the it's not as difficult as you make it out to be. I'm talking from experience not from a head full of air.

1)Timing
2)Balthazar's Spirit
3)Remove Balthar's Spirit if you need the extra PIP
4)Switch to staff (assuming staff has a larger pool of energy)
5)Switching to a zealous modded weapon

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Apr 01, 2006, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Aran and Lightning:

I hope you are enjoying your long-ass convos cause I just skipped everything you said.

Seriously, shorter posts... geez.

Mystic Memory · Apr 02, 2006, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Wow totally agree with above poster.

I mean I wouldnt have the patience to type all of that up.

Although I did read everything, because it was rather interesting.

On the new mesmer skills, I dont know what Anet was thinking when they made Lyssa's Balance so nooblet.